Interviewer: Did most teachers have B-A's then, in the high-schools? Speaker: When I was teaching? Well when I first started to teach grade thirteen was divided into two sections. There were about seven subjects in each sections, and if you had your grade thirteen you could get what they called a first-class-certificate and you could teach in continuation schools, see a lot of the country schools had just first two years high-school and ah but some of them were teaching in when teachers were scarce ...

Speaker: Well a first class certificate you've got um, you've got to um taken thirteen second you had grade twelve. Interviewer: Well I-see, that's what it meant then. Speaker: And the, ah there was several years when (cough) when they made all the public school teachers have grade thirteen and I taught night-school for several years for people who were trying to get their grade thirteen. Interviewer: What they, they do now in grade twelve and thirteen they graduate people twice I guess. You get a secondary diploma and you go to grade thirteen and honours diploma. I guess they're about the same thing. Speaker: Yes.

... and I can remember there was one book that was prescribed that they had to use and we used it in grade ten and grade twelve and grade thirteen and ah when Lester-Royles first came he was, he and I worked together and by-the-way, he is one teacher I have the most utmost respect for.

... only principal in town that has any backbone at all. Other principals would slam the door in his face, there was no drugs in their school and he knew..." Teaching Miss-Hasting used to say, she was our history teacher, "if I took a class right through from grade nine to grade thirteen, nobody would fail." And I used to talk to Mr-McCracken about it, I said, "if a teacher could carry a class through what it would mean."

And I would get six of Lester's and he would get about six of mine and do you know one time, when the inspectors came they wanted to...they thought that we were holding students back in grade twelve so that they would make a good showing in grade thirteen, we were getting such good results. And it was just that you, you had that same group right through for three years and you knew which ones prodding, which ones needed encouraging, which ones should be stepped on a bit and which ones should be given a little leeway ...

At first, uh they sort-of looked and wondered who I was. But this, remember, this goes into another story because um I had already been in a classroom, to- into an English- into grade-thirteen English courses, and I believe I took two, at B-C-I. So therefore, I had been in with teenagers. So I guess I could act as crazy as they did.

Speaker: And I decided, "Hm, I will get my grade-thirteen," because I still had to wait for one or two of my sons, ah if they were taking grade-thirteen balli-- biology, I didn't want to go into that classroom. Interviewer: So you were in the classroom with the regular students? Speaker: Yes, and I start-- Interviewer: This was not an adult class? Speaker: This was not. Interviewer: That was a very big step, Bi.

I don't recall ever getting really high marks you-know like I got enough to get by and keep my parents happy and just barely enough to get into uni-- university. I think my average out of- coming out of grade-thirteen was seventy-two or seventy-three something-like-that so it was- Ah I guess in those days it was a balanced life. You go to school, you go home, you played hockey and in the summer-time you'd play a little tennis and baseball ...

Interviewer: Speaking of Departmentals and those exams, you wrote Departmentals did you, in grade thirteen? Speaker: When I was in high-school yeah grade-thirteen Departmentals yeah uh-huh. Ah and I can recall um the ah ah the- the years in grade-thirteen, um y-- you would have ah teachers come to you ah towards the end of the year and try to discourage you from- from writing the final exams um I-think teachers had a pretty good idea of- of who was going to do well and who wasn't ah and ah I know Saint-Michaels in particular they- they didn't want people trying exams ah- in those days you took nine subjects in grade-thirteen and it was kind-of common ah for a lot of people to take two years to do the grade-thirteen um and so the kind-of fringe or average students ah were encouraged maybe to only tackle maybe four or five exams ah in their first year and then come back and do it again the second year.

Interviewer: When the departmentals were gone did you notice changes then in um teacher attitude? Student attitude? Speaker: Um yeah w-- th-- the- the ah- the um the process of going through high-school when I was ah ah a youngster, especially grade-thirteen, th-- ah um the whole year seemed to be focused on THE final exam and ah I can recall ah a great percentage of time, especially in the last three or four months of the year, where we'd just dig out all these old exams ...

Like I got in- I think my next two years were in the sixties, ah I can remember just sneaking by a fifty-two I-think in grade-twelve, and back then grade-thirteen was still there- no, grade-thirteen you could drop it. (snaps fingers) Yes, that's what it was. Seventy-two, sixties, fifty-two in grade-eleven, grade-twelve I think I made forty-eight. The only class I ever failed.

Speaker: I read golf-books. I ah didn't know what I wanted to do, had no idea, and- I owe this part to my mother, um I split grade- what I did is I split grade-thirteen into two, 'cause- for two reasons. I didn't know what I wanted to do, which was a minor reason, but the other reason was I wanted to play sports.

And ah I went back to thirteen twice, partly 'cause I didn't know what I wanted to do, but partly becau-- mo-- mainly because I wanted to play sports for another year. But, as luck would have it um the second year I went back to grade-thirteen is when I met my present wife, Brenda. And we went out in high-school for a couple o' months, and that's 'seventy-five and here we are two months ago we got married and it's two-thousand-seven. So it's come full-circle.

Speaker: I was straight outta high-school. I was only- shoot, how old was I? I was probably eighteen, nineteen. Nineteen, maybe, yeah. Maybe twenty. (laughs) Interviewer: Yeah. Speaker: I did grade-thirteen twice. Yup so that I think is what helped me get into Proctor-and-Gamble, but I had no skills. No working skills, I was fresh outta high-school.

... I didn't want to be a secretary, and I didn't think I want to be a nurse and so teaching sounded good. And I really enjoyed it. It was the- it was the right choice for me, at that time. And ah so I went from grade-thirteen to teacher's college.

I guess maybe Alison Colby in- in grade-eleven, who was my English teacher. I thought, "If I could be like her, I- that's what I want to do. I want to inspire people and make them think and ah, do different things." I remember in- in grade-thirteen, we had Waiting-for-Godeau as our- one of the plays. And ah, we all thought it was absolutely ridiculous. And she sent us off and we had to come up with scenes, we had to actually do scenes for it.

Interviewer: So why did you move to Toronto? Speaker: Well um he got a job in Toronto out of teacher's college. I didn't get one because ah- wh-- in those days you could go to teacher's college out of grade-twelve for two years. You had to have your grade-thirteen to get on the Toronto board. Now you have to have your university degree but ah anyway it doesn't necessary make a better teacher but who knows.

There was a shortage of vocational teachers in sixty-three, might've been sixty-two but we heard about it in sixty-three and they would let you in- ah, this is high-school or ah, public-school, without your qualifications if you had your grade-thirteen and twelve years office experience. Ten years office experience, which I had both.

Speaker: ... he didn't kick me out, kick me out, he just, "Here's money, get a haircut, and you're going to work." So, it was either school or work. Interviewer: Rather unexpected wasn't? Speaker: It was. Yeah. He had a lot of nerve. I started grade-thirteen, and ah I went for a couple weeks, and then ah- ah decided, "you-know what, I wasn't gonna- I wasn't gonna go to school anymore." And ah pr-- it was probably about a month or so, finally like I said, mom and dad had enough ...

There was only- there was only B-C-I and Saint-Michael's and Albert-College. And ah so ah ah it was kind-of funny even Saint-Michael's ah only went to a certain grade at that time and to get your grade-thirteen you had to go o'er to- over- they had to go over to B-C-I to get their grade-thirteen.